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The never-ending 777 route shuffling

The never-ending 777 route shuffling
Published by: wktd 2009-01-09

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More 777 route reshuffle this winter (2007/08) it seems:

Frankfurt
originally planned for daily 77W through out the Winter on Toronto - Frankfurt, but now it is adjusted to Daily 330-300 + 2nd daily 767-300 between 14DEC07 and 29FEB08.

77W returns on 01MAR08, the 2nd daily operated by 767-300 will stay.

Looks like this is the first time double daily to FRA in winter?

Paris
Montreal - Paris will now get 777-300ER throughout the winter

Beijing/Shanghai
This makes a bit sense since Toronto - China was previously shown as operated by A340-500, but now 777-300ER.

Tokyo
Vancouver - Tokyo will see the return of 77W on 01MAR08

Hong Kong
Toronto - Hong Kong continues to be 77L throughout the winter, no major changes

London
Toronto - London sees the return of 77W, on AC856/869 from April 2008.

Sydney
No change to the planned 77W/77L on Toronto - Vancouver - Sydney

My point with Q Shoe wasn't about which product is better. He says AC's new J product isn't selling, so I say, then why should it matter which plane is put into the Japanese market. We all know the 777 product is superior.
No you were arguing something completely different but I will let you get away with it ;)......

J isn't selling because of the crappy/dirty planes.......the market here has many choices(ie. better for the money:)) and unfortunately for years HQ in the PQ have failed to realize it..........and now it's a wash:eek:!

There is an element of chance whichever way one goes.

Exactly. If I have to chance it, why not get some benefit out of it.

I chance it with UA by doing a connection.
Upside:
1. In case of IROP or weather related issues peace of mind knowing UA will take care of me 100%.
2. Long term gain,quicker to lifetime *A Gold^

I will chance it on SQ by doing a connection .
Upside: Again I can depend on SQ to take care of me 100% in case of IROP or weather related issues.
In fact SQ ensure I am comfortable even without the above issues.
If I have a long layover because of a connection, SQ comp. me a room, meals & transfers.
I have taken AC YVR-NRT-YVR continuing on *A carrier intra asia in paid J. Due to AC's schedule, I have had long layover.
With AC's nickle & dimming:
AC will provide hotel (Cheapest in the area) however no meal voucher or transfers. NRT layover meals can put one back $50+.

Just like the AC Japan website that still doesn't have a Japanese language booking facility or any real info at all........It's odd when the OZ market that has 1 flight a day but the Japanese market has upwards of 4 has yet to see a proper Japanese language web site.......odd that! All of AC main competitors in Japan have Japanese web sites with booking engines....In fact UA was offering those wonderful New Zealand business class fares in Japanese and JPY on there web site LOL!^^^

JNTO are much more fixated on the 2 billion souls that live in the region nearby to worry about the Canadian market.....I believe they targetted 10 million foreign devils by 2010 and are well on the way to 8 million this year.....good on them too!

Nice attempt at deflection, but my issue is in getting Canadians to Japan and not Japanese to New Zealand if the JNTO wants to spend its money elsewhere, so be it, and I'll keep in mind that they want yellow and not white visitors and will look to visit a country eager for my business. Sure UA and NW have good Japanese language websites. Who wouldn't with those MacArthur rights.

I agree that FRA is becoming more congested and not surprised to see AC putting more seats in the future... But I also prefer that to a LHR connection. LHR is certainly not a nice experience. I try to avoid connecting there. LH also offer a lot more connection than BMI.

MUC is also a very nice airport and I hope AC will add capacity there as well. With a single daily from YYZ (always full) I think they could move some seats there as well. The number of connections out of MUC is also important. Same could also be said about ZRH even if the airport is smaller, it is very friendly and easy to manage.

From what I heard today they are keeping two of the 340's for the YVR-HKG route until November 08!

I'll check it out. All 343s were supposed to be sublet by May 08, but if a sublease fell through, they could have decided to keep the planes long enough to accelerate the 333 XM. This would let them do multiple 333s per month in a Sept-Nov 08 timeframe (3,3,2). Alternatively, they may have a new route introduction and may want to cover it off - and 333 XM - until the 17th 777 arrives in Nov 08. But this is all just speculation on my part.

As Sebring says, for the vast majority of the flying public, a plane is a plane is a plane, with perhaps the differentiation between a "big plane" and a "small plane".

That's indeed the way it should be or the way we should see it.

But only until AC themselves starting making a big deal with their new equipment. Such as, in commercials etc. Which they are doing at least in some markets.

So, good old story, talking with both sides of their mouth. And some/most folks are stupid enough to buy into the BS.

Still, is that reason enough to serve them back the other side of AC's mouth?

Oh, not true. LH has a lot of intra-Europe after noon, plus a fair bit of Africa and Asia.

True, but the intra european flights after noon, won't allow you anymore to work - then the whole day is gone right?, that is why the early morning flights are better - at least for me.

Speaking of BS, a subject you seem well acquainted with, in which commercials is AC touting its new product, and above all, it's new aircraft? I've seen commercials touting passes and other aspects of the commercial product. I've seen print commercials about seat sales. But nothing about a 777.

Just one example: I have seen ads for 777 service on some French newspaper web pages.

(And yes, you are right, I have a good nose when it comes to smell BS.)

And Lufty, and many others.Not to mention Cathay which sells discounted fares cheaper than can be bought at the travel agencies^^^. And talk about deflection, why would the JNTO care about a small low spending market like Canada, they have much bigger fish to fry nearby. As to why AC keeps shuffling their high capacity 77W, some have said that they are having trouble filling them (with front end paying pax) on many of their routes. And we all know that (front end paying pax) are a dime a dozen ex.Canada.

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With regards to the MacArthur rights(straw man)argument, I have heard it before, from the horses mouth........ and with the new capacity limitations gone it should be a breeze for AC.......no?

Considering that the 777s don't change the front end capacity balance that much I don't see why it matters whether YYZ-NRT is a 777 or a 340. As to why the JNTO would care, it should care because currencies shift and if Canada is destined to be a strong currency country, with a 21st century version of the Swiss Franc, and an aging population of baby boomers with nothing better to spend their money on, then one of us will be worth five tourists from many other countries.

a) the vast majority of the flying public is not a frequent traveller;
b) a sizable number of frequent travellers have their arrangements done by corporate TAs, who again, are not making a decision based on 777 vs. 763.

Simon

You guys kill me with your made-up statistics. I've had analysis done, and 84% of your posts are quoting non-existent measurements. Any corp of size now has online booking, and people arrange the flight times to match the planes they want. Sure on YUL-YYZ it doesn't matter, but for YYZ-YVR, you better believe it does.

I had a booking on AC857 in January 2008 which was supposed to be operated with a 77L as of a few weeks ago. The equipment has since been "down-gauged" to a 763. The never-ending 777 route shuffling continues......... :(:td:

Why would AC enjoy such silly game to jerk its customers around by switching equipment type? Equipment type is an integral part of travel decision making amongst other things.

It may be for you, but for 99% of people booking three plus months out, it is not. Equipment changes. Now changing equipment a week out, or running a 763 on a YVR-HNL-SYD routing after Dec 14, that would be a different situation with a different entitlement. The 77L is not intended to be a primary North Atlantic aircraft like the 77W, A330 or 763. It was probably slotted into the LHR route for training purposes. In any case, by then you will have a high probability of getting an XM 763.

Just for clarification then, will a route like YYC - FRA then get XM'd 763's vs. the current 333's? That would mean a drop of J class seats from 42 to 24 and as it is now on my flights there are always more than 25 paid J pax.

Does this also hold true for routes like YYC - FRA? Or is AC planning to increase the frequencies to 2 a day with XM'd aircraft?

No, not necessarily. They may get two XM'd 763s. It just means that either by putting XM'd 763s on a route or by putting on 777s, the LHR and then FRA routes will get the upgraded product on a dedicated and predictable basis before markets like Latin America and Tel Aviv see it.

Agreed, but while the second flight leaves only at 10h00 PM out of YYZ which is convenient, it only arrives in FRA at 12h00 thus not allowing for any morning connection anymore, a bit of a disadvantage in IMHO

Oh, not true. LH has a lot of intra-Europe after noon, plus a fair bit of Africa and Asia.

One has to wonder if the 777 isn't too much plane for AC. If they're having trouble filling them in economic good times...

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Are you sure yyzprincess? The 763 old J class is still nicer and more spacious than the current UA C (unless you are on a plane with the new C but I don't think those are rolled out yet?). Also, connecting through ORD is a bit of a hassle as opposed to the straight shot out of YYZ. Just an idea, but if you are worried about the old J on AC, why not just fly BA with their NCCW??

I fly strictly *A carriers. I get great service from UA. IROP, I can depend on UA to take care of me 100%. UA has never let me down as yet.Trust me with 200K BIS on UA metal in 2007, I have had my share of weather, IROP related issues, on each occasion UA has taken care of me 100%.
I am upset with SQ for their PPS nonsence.Service wise,again I can depend on them.
SAA I only used them for within SA. Nov. will be the my first long haul and in the coming months.

I am so committed to *A carriers only, that I know of a very Good Deal Premium fare on non-*A , and I refuse to take advantage of it.

We don't even live in the real world on FT.

The reason most people don't care about the equipment is because Y is Y is Y.

That being said, yes I was certainly disappointed when my flights in C changed from 333 to 763 and 77W to 343, but bloody hell I was in Executive First and I did (barely) live to tell the tale.

I do commiserate with those who want one type of plane, because I feel the same way, but that commiseration doesn't extend to agreeing when people think the airline is screwing them over.

When you purchase J/C/Z on AC you are guaranteeing yourself a seat on the worst plane they have in the fleet.

Just because you go through an airport that has a large % of delayed flights does NOT mean your flight will be delayed..
If you are on AC YYZ-HKG trust me that flight is GOING on time.... otherwise the crew goes over hours and will have a huge delay when another crew is brought in...... SAME in ORD... if you are going to Asia... that plane is not usually delayed unless its "broken". UA delays other flights, I assume to get the important Asia/Europe flights going in bad weather.

I fly to ORD a lot and I really dont have delays.... then someone explained it because the routes i fly dont get delayed.... unless its REALLY bad:eek:

YYZ i asssume is the worst airport in CND for delays.... so I am stuck with 2 bad airport... oh well;)

From what I heard today they are keeping two of the 340's for the YVR-HKG route until November 08!

Otherwise, it's for the JNTO to rediscover Canada. Right nowm they can't even keep their Canadian website up to date. Just like the AC Japan website that still doesn't have a Japanese language booking facility or any real info at all........It's odd when the OZ market that has 1 flight a day but the Japanese market has upwards of 4 has yet to see a proper Japanese language web site.......odd that! All of AC main competitors in Japan have Japanese web sites with booking engines....In fact UA was offering those wonderful New Zealand business class fares in Japanese and JPY on there web site LOL!^^^

JNTO are much more fixated on the 2 billion souls that live in the region nearby to worry about the Canadian market.....I believe they targetted 10 million foreign devils by 2010 and are well on the way to 8 million this year.....good on them too!

I suppose you're the 99% of people? I book three months in advance fairly often for my trips to get C rather than J. I will consciously book the flight operated by the equipment I want. Luckily, I can often change if the equip changes, but I'm tired of people acting like it's not a big deal to the passenger.

As Sebring says, for the vast majority of the flying public, a plane is a plane is a plane, with perhaps the differentiation between a "big plane" and a "small plane".

I am sure the equipment type plays into the decision making for the majority of us on FT, but for the vast majority of everyday travellers, it almost assuredly does not.

Simon

Sure UA and NW have good Japanese language websites. Who wouldn't with those MacArthur rights. And Lufty, and many others.Not to mention Cathay which sells discounted fares cheaper than can be bought at the travel agencies^^^. And talk about deflection, why would the JNTO care about a small low spending market like Canada, they have much bigger fish to fry nearby. As to why AC keeps shuffling their high capacity 77W, some have said that they are having trouble filling them (with front end paying pax) on many of their routes. And we all know that (front end paying pax) are a dime a dozen ex.Canada.

With regards to the MacArthur rights(straw man)argument, I have heard it before, from the horses mouth........ and with the new capacity limitations gone it should be a breeze for AC.......no?

Sure, what works for you, except some would say they like a late departure from YYZ because they can put in a full day at the office, go home, eat, and then head to the airport, as opposed to bugging out around 2 pm to initiate the trip to catch a late afternoon or early evening departure. Conversely, on the return, you pick up more time at your European origin point. Instead of gettingh up obscenely early in, say, Prague, to get to the airport to get to FRA by late-morning, you can get up at a civilized hour, have a leisurely breakfast make some calls if you want, and catch the second LH flight to FRA.

Again it comes down to personal preferences. But there must be reason why the planes with more capacity are the earlier ones as well as the last flight until now didn't operate at any day of the year right?

WE toughed out the Crappiest planes that AC had on the Pacific/Asia routes. Perpetual 767 assignment on the route that I flew. Now that they've redone the 767, we get the old equipment again.

I flew ICN-YVR again this week. Very happy with SQ.

They may call it fairness in assigning all route with XM/777. But it's obvious that the same games still play. The unfavorable routes get the dumpy planes.

I guess that until I fly the same routes as the people that call the shots (Doghnuts to Dollars those routes have 777s), I'll spend my cash elsewhere.

Just for clarification then, will a route like YYC - FRA then get XM'd 763's vs. the current 333's? That would mean a drop of J class seats from 42 to 24 and as it is now on my flights there are always more than 25 paid J pax.

Does this also hold true for routes like YYC - FRA? Or is AC planning to increase the frequencies to 2 a day with XM'd aircraft?

As much as I respect Sebring's opinion...I would like to hear more about this startling turn of events from a certain someone(you know of whom I speak)..........

So instead you are going to play oharescrewuplotto? That's crazy.

My thoughts exactly, Sebring. I tell corp TAs regularly "I don't connect through Chicago." I've never had pushback.

And look, if you're smart enough to go on the website and figure out you want the 3:15 flight because it's scheduled to have the plane you prefer, and the corp TA offers you a 2:30 flight on lesser equipment, you just tell the corp TA that you have a meeting or something and the earliest you could get to the airport is 2:00. Presto, you're booked on the 3:15. I also use this approach to be able to fly the airline of my choice to cities that have only a few flights a day.

Me, I would not stay up 3 or 4 hours later, or get up 3 or 4 hours earlier, to get the nicer plane. But I do look and see what planes are scheduled and it does sometimes factor in to my decision.

You guys kill me with your made-up statistics. I've had analysis done, and 84% of your posts are quoting non-existent measurements. Any corp of size now has online booking, and people arrange the flight times to match the planes they want. Sure on YUL-YYZ it doesn't matter, but for YYZ-YVR, you better believe it does.

Not true.I fly YSB/YYZ/YVR/YLW in a couple of weeks.The YYZ/YVR is on a A321.:eek:I could sit around and wait a few hours for a 763. Not.I would prefer a domestic 767 over a 321,agreed.Will transit as quickly as possible instead(I did call and receive my u/g:D)

I want to get there.I do over a 100 segments a year and waiting for plane types would add up to too much wasted time.

Do you believe you represent a "typical" Canadian airline passenger?

Nonsense. Anyone that's a frequent traveller (the meat and potatoes of revenue) understands the different planes and makes choices accordingly. Sure, my parents that fly 5x per year don't care, but anyone with P or greater knows the different planes and chooses the ones that offer better amenities.

a) the vast majority of the flying public is not a frequent traveller;
b) a sizable number of frequent travellers have their arrangements done by corporate TAs, who again, are not making a decision based on 777 vs. 763.

Simon

Mrs. Zorn, who is not only beautiful but also quite brilliant, is not able to tell me (within hours of the flight) whether the plane had TV's for everyone on the backs of the seats.

The lovely Mrs. acysb87 has learned that I should verify a J u/g for her in the 1st 3 rows of the a/c.;):cool:

And again I still think that it is short thinking of AC since FRA is the better transit hub in particular for Star Alliance flights since LHR is completely dominated one world and BA, so LH is gonna love it - because if AC doesn't have their new product on YYZ - FRA, more people will fly again LH because finally they have their new product guaranteed....

Well, if AC's second flight is an XM's 763, then the new product will be available.

Not true.I fly YSB/YYZ/YVR/YLW in a couple of weeks.The YYZ/YVR is on a A321.:eek:I could sit around and wait a few hours for a 763. Not.I would prefer a domestic 767 over a 321,agreed.Will transit as quickly as possible instead(I did call and receive my u/g:D)

I want to get there.I do over a 100 segments a year and waiting for plane types would add up to too much wasted time.

Those of us that are of the 73% of Canadians that live in 90% of the large cities don't need to wait for connections on the 57% of AC's domestic fleet that does 85% of the longer domestic flights.

If you lived in Toronto, you'd schedule your flights to not be on a 767/320 if you could arrange it (assuming you flew in J).

www.aircanada.ca is showing AC007/008 YVR/HKG/YVR to be operated with A343 instead of 77W (as earlier listed) post April 2008.

When are they going to get DEL back again? Now that we have more long range planes that might free up some planes to compete with 9W,EY,AF,BA etc with their one stop services from Canada to India.

wali

I fly to ORD a lot and I really dont have delays.... then someone explained it because the routes i fly dont get delayed.... unless its REALLY bad:eek:

My feeling is not do the routes matter, but also the equipment. UA appears to prioritize based on the potential number of pax that may become affected. If you fly on an UAX RJ during peak times and for whatever reason landing times (slots?) at ORD are scarce, you can be sure that UA is going to land the 777 or even 737 before your silly little UAX RJ.

That said, weather can easily trump all factor and cause delays across the board.

Its simple the 340 has CRAP J class on a duct tape cabin, the 777 is new, has overhead bins in J and its COOL:D Oh did i mention its new... still has the new car smell :)

Speaking of which, I actually had a 343 seat with duct tape on it once. :) Another trip had to have maintenance in LHR board the plane to put missing bolts into my seat so the headrest wouldn't dangle on only one bolt. :eek: Yes, getting rid of the 340s is more important than getting XM interiors in existing planes or new planes IMHO.

Thanks for the info! I believe you got this from Sabre right?

AC is killing AC on CDG by reducing service quality and increasing prices. I went from 4 YYZ-CDG/year in B/H/M fares to 0 trips/year at $0.

I don't think they could fill the 777 to CDG very often right now. It seemed quite wide open when I took it to FRA even.

One has to wonder if the 777 isn't too much plane for AC. If they're having trouble filling them in economic good times...

Considering that the 777s don't change the front end capacity balance that much I don't see why it matters whether YYZ-NRT is a 777 or a 340. As to why the JNTO would care, it should care because currencies shift and if Canada is destined to be a strong currency country, with a 21st century version of the Swiss Franc, and an aging population of baby boomers with nothing better to spend their money on, then one of us will be worth five tourists from many other countries.

Ask your minder who spends the most at on-board duty-free when you have a chance...........

I thought the discussion was of people who fly, not the general public. Try the same test at Pearson in the security lines leading to AC gates.

(I actually think most people don't know the difference, except big planes vs. small planes -- RJs and similar crap -- but we're talking about AC's passengers, or flyers in general, and not the masses).

=aw

And those three routes - YYZ-HKG, YYZ-PEK and YVR-SYD - will pretty much account for six of the eight 777s AC will fly this fall and early winter. The other two will do North Atlantic rotations, to London, Frankfurt and Paris. We shouldn't forget the cargo component here - Cargoagent would insist. All of the routes where 777s are flying have good cargo demand/yields in at least one direction, and YYZ-PEK westbound, normally not a strong cargo route, should do a bit better in the runup to the Olympics. YVR-SYD in particular is a solid two-way cargo route.

Also, the 777 will go back on Tokyo as of February, and will take over YVR-HKG on April 1.

So, as of this fall, all flights to China will be 777s. As of next April, all flights to HKG will be 777s and by next summer all flights to Tokyo will be 777s. So, in other words, all Pacific flights except KIX are destined to be 777s year-round with the possible exception of YVR-SEL.

Starting this fall, as others have noted, the XM's will be dedicated to specific routes, but what I was told today is that they will also be targeted progressively at ALL LHR and FRA routes, so that city-pairs like YUL-LHR, YOW-LHR or YEG-LHR will get an XM'd 763 before a route like YYZ-TLV or the Latin American routes. By next summer, all aircraft in the fleet except the 333s will be XM'd.

Finally, starting this fall, there will be new aircraft designators in the schedule for XM'd aircraft so that travellers can predict the routes they are on, subject, as always to last minute substitutions for mechanical reasons.

Great info, cheers. Like the idea of new aircraft designators in the schedule for XM'd aircraft.

Well, if AC's second flight is an XM's 763, then the new product will be available.

Agreed, but while the second flight leaves only at 10h00 PM out of YYZ which is convenient, it only arrives in FRA at 12h00 thus not allowing for any morning connection anymore, a bit of a disadvantage in IMHO

Starting this fall, as others have noted, the XM's will be dedicated to specific routes, but what I was told today is that they will also be targeted progressively at ALL LHR and FRA routes, so that city-pairs like YUL-LHR, YOW-LHR or YEG-LHR will get an XM'd 763 before a route like YYZ-TLV or the Latin American routes. By next summer, all aircraft in the fleet except the 333s will be XM'd.

Just for clarification then, will a route like YYC - FRA then get XM'd 763's vs. the current 333's? That would mean a drop of J class seats from 42 to 24 and as it is now on my flights there are always more than 25 paid J pax.

it's a lot cheaper to fly one daily 773 flight (349 seats) over the pond that to fly two 763s (410-odd seats). The extra 50-60 seats aren't going to be missed because you knock off the lowest yielding traffic.

Does this also hold true for routes like YYC - FRA? Or is AC planning to increase the frequencies to 2 a day with XM'd aircraft?

They were given a warning of this years ago, and Canada and AC do little if any selling/marketing in the Japanese market.........The Japanese have been busy promoting themselves to a strong Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tourism market.
Those tourists are very evident on the streets or the city.....and ask at any of the high end shops who is doing all the buying........it isn't the just the locals!

Well, we can argue until we are blue in the face as to whether it's AC's job or that of national tourist bureaus to promote individual markets that rise and fall with exchange rates. I say it is not. AC has more capacity to China, and China is pretty hot, so if AC had any money to burn on promotion, I'd focus on high growth markets. Otherwise, it's for the JNTO to rediscover Canada. Right nowm they can't even keep their Canadian website up to date. That being said, I've complained that ACV has a limp offering for Japan - basically, one tour that is structured decently and includes lots of free time, but which is priced way out of line with what I can get on expedia for flying other carriers. The price looks like it was set a year ago and never reduced. With rare exceptions, I find most other Japan tours sold in Canada by third parties to be too structured and I am not ready for that kind of touring.

That's indeed the way it should be or the way we should see it.

But only until AC themselves starting making a big deal with their new equipment. Such as, in commercials etc. Which they are doing at least in some markets.

So, good old story, talking with both sides of their mouth. And some/most folks are stupid enough to buy into the BS.

Still, is that reason enough to serve them back the other side of AC's mouth?

Speaking of BS, a subject you seem well acquainted with, in which commercials is AC touting its new product, and above all, it's new aircraft? I've seen commercials touting passes and other aspects of the commercial product. I've seen print commercials about seat sales. But nothing about a 777.

Have you been through LHR this year? If not, try it and let us know what you think. From my perspective, things keep going from bad to worse, and who wants to pay that ridiculous British tax? As for me, I'll take the bus ride at FRA - not a "dreaded" experience, just a minor hiccup.

I quite agree. Last time I visited the LHR zoo was in February thank god. Been through FRA at least 10 times since. Bus does not always happen; it tends to be quick and efficient, so it's only a minor inconvenience.

Which 343 FIN's have left the fleet, I notice they only have 7 left, however the best seat thread shows 9.

London now gets 777 service in November/December for the time being.

AC856 YYZ - LHR 77W Day 127 05NOV07 - 11DEC07
AC856 YYZ - LHR 77L Day 2 18DEC07 - 01JAN08
AC848 YYZ - LHR 77W Day x127 07NOV07 - 08DEC07
AC848 YYZ - LHR 77W Day 34 12DEC07 - 13DEC07
AC848 YYZ - LHR 77L Day x24 14DEC07 - 19DEC07
AC848 YYZ - LHR 77L Day x2 19DEC07 - 05JAN08
AC858 YYZ - LHR 77L Daily 01DEC07 - 13DEC07

This is for Toronto departure.

Not doing London departure for now in case of more shuffling.

Air Canada seems to love playing the musical chair game with 777. Was this the case when 330/340 arrived?

I suppose you're the 99% of people? I book three months in advance fairly often for my trips to get C rather than J. I will consciously book the flight operated by the equipment I want. Luckily, I can often change if the equip changes, but I'm tired of people acting like it's not a big deal to the passenger. That's the typical company-centric (rather than customer-centric) attitude that AC exhibits to piss off 99% of us. Why is it so hard for them to think like a passenger?

And I systematically book three months in advance to get 12 JK on the 330 340 or 767, or 18 JK in the 777... now if the keep switching from 777 to 330 or 767, there is no point in booking in advance as they were not astute enough to give the same number to bulkhead rows on the different planes!

Please go out on Yonge Street this afternoon and ask people what the difference is between an Airbus 319, a Boeing 767-200ER and a Embraer 190.

I will ask on St.Catherines Street here in Montreal.;)

Which 343 FIN's have left the fleet, I notice they only have 7 left, however the best seat thread shows 9.901, 903, 983. [902, 904-906, 909, 910, 981 still in the fleet at this point]

Its simple the 340 has CRAP J class on a duct tape cabin, the 777 is new, has overhead bins in J and its COOL:D Oh did i mention its new... still has the new car smell :)

My point with Q Shoe wasn't about which product is better. He says AC's new J product isn't selling, so I say, then why should it matter which plane is put into the Japanese market. We all know the 777 product is superior.

I forgot to mention when the 77L was switched to a 763, "I" availability was dropped from 9 to zero.

77L and 763 are not equivalent equipment. For example, many Y seats in XM'd 763 have only 31" seat pitch while it's 32" for the 77L and 34" for many Y seats in the A343.

I am glad that I have the authority to tell my corporate TA to book how I would like to travel rather than being told by the corporate TA how I would travel in reverse.

AC must be trying to shift a lot of connecting customers to FRA over LHR but FRA has become such a congested airport and I find it worse for transfering flights than LHR even though one is theoretically in the same terminal building. FRA has too few gates and those dreaded bus rides! This should make LH happy though. It can continue its own single 747 or 346 but look forward to picking up lots of connecting passengers off AC's flights to take onward throughout Europe.

I suppose AC figures NRT is not a market worth competing with new equipment in, at least out of YYZ. It will still have XM 763s ex-YVR to complete with Japan AL, but has not competitor on the YYZ nonstop to worry about...best develop the ultra longhauls to China.

Have you been through LHR this year? If not, try it and let us know what you think. From my perspective, things keep going from bad to worse, and who wants to pay that ridiculous British tax? As for me, I'll take the bus ride at FRA - not a "dreaded" experience, just a minor hiccup. As for NRT, with the yen at current levels vs the C$, Japanese travel to Canada is down. NRT was soft this year which is why there are no 777s serving the two routes this winter. We have become a high cost destination for Asians, but at least with China, there is the intense curiousity factor because so few Chinese have been to Canada, and a lot of Canadians do go to China. AC has a job to do on Japan. It is more affordable than it's been for decades, but ACV does not have a competitively priced package compared to what you can get on UA. I've looked at third party Japan tours, but they tend to be too "guided" and "structured", whereas you can build a two-city or three-city tour on expedia for half the price of ACV's lone package. Canadians tend to have long memories. They remember Norway for the $10 hamburger, but that was a decade ago. Same with Japan. We heard so much for so long about how unaffordable it was to visit, and that all the traffic was inbound. I suppose images of middle class Japanese coming to Banff in huge numbers to buy Gucci and Pucci goodies for a song reinforced that belief, but the pendulum has swung partly back and one can have a nice trip to Japan and stay in good accommodations without breaking the bank.

One has to wonder if the 777 isn't too much plane for AC. If they're having trouble filling them in economic good times...

One should note that AC has a lot of situations where it can combine flights and gain economically with the 773. For example, there are five flights a day on YYZ-LHR, two on YUL-LHR and various other double daily services where one flight might be just as good as two. That would free up 767s to do some different things.

Secondly, in some markets, AC has been predictably and justifiably hammered for an inferior product, but to turn that around, one has to put out the upgraded product in a reasonably predictable fashion, so if YUL-CDG is not selling that well, put on the better product and do some promotion and legwork with travel agents. It will take time, but the thing to remember is that it's a lot cheaper to fly one daily 773 flight (349 seats) over the pond that to fly two 763s (410-odd seats). The extra 50-60 seats aren't going to be missed because you knock off the lowest yielding traffic. Also you can put some big cargo pallets on the 773 - a good chance to increase presence in the lobster trade to France vs a 333. The 333 would likely lift 15 tonnes and night of the little red buggers while a 773 will do between 25 and 30 tonnes. And that route is very popular and tends to be low yield, but at least with the low seat-mile cost on the 773, AC can discount the back liberally and go heavily after the U.S.-France connecting market.

Considering that the 777s don't change the front end capacity balance that much I don't see why it matters whether YYZ-NRT is a 777 or a 340. As to why the JNTO would care, it should care because currencies shift and if Canada is destined to be a strong currency country, with a 21st century version of the Swiss Franc, and an aging population of baby boomers with nothing better to spend their money on, then one of us will be worth five tourists from many other countries.

Its simple the 340 has CRAP J class on a duct tape cabin, the 777 is new, has overhead bins in J and its COOL:D Oh did i mention its new... still has the new car smell :)

It may be for you, but for 99% of people booking three plus months out, it is not. Equipment changes.

I suppose you're the 99% of people? I book three months in advance fairly often for my trips to get C rather than J. I will consciously book the flight operated by the equipment I want. Luckily, I can often change if the equip changes, but I'm tired of people acting like it's not a big deal to the passenger. That's the typical company-centric (rather than customer-centric) attitude that AC exhibits to piss off 99% of us. Why is it so hard for them to think like a passenger?

I would like to hear more about this startling turn of events from a certain someone(you know of whom I speak)..........

That certain someone is probably not able to comment publicly at this time however.

No, not necessarily. They may get two XM'd 763s. It just means that either by putting XM'd 763s on a route or by putting on 777s, the LHR and then FRA routes will get the upgraded product on a dedicated and predictable basis before markets like Latin America and Tel Aviv see it.

Thanks. It will be nice to get the XM'd planes. Those 333 seats are not my favorite for long hauls.

As Sebring says, for the vast majority of the flying public, a plane is a plane is a plane, with perhaps the differentiation between a "big plane" and a "small plane".

I am sure the equipment type plays into the decision making for the majority of us on FT, but for the vast majority of everyday travellers, it almost assuredly does not.

Simon

Nonsense. Anyone that's a frequent traveller (the meat and potatoes of revenue) understands the different planes and makes choices accordingly. Sure, my parents that fly 5x per year don't care, but anyone with P or greater knows the different planes and chooses the ones that offer better amenities.

AC must be trying to shift a lot of connecting customers to FRA over LHR but FRA has become such a congested airport and I find it worse for transfering flights than LHR even though one is theoretically in the same terminal building. FRA has too few gates and those dreaded bus rides! This should make LH happy though. It can continue its own single 747 or 346 but look forward to picking up lots of connecting passengers off AC's flights to take onward throughout Europe.

I suppose AC figures NRT is not a market worth competing with new equipment in, at least out of YYZ. It will still have XM 763s ex-YVR to complete with Japan AL, but has not competitor on the YYZ nonstop to worry about...best develop the ultra longhauls to China.

Well to a certain extent I can understand this move, although I was looking very much forward to new product in winter to NRT - YYZ. I would tend to agree that there is more business for AC to China to PVG and PEK also giving the large chinese population in Canada. NRT as a transit airport isn't the best one. Well I agree that FRA is very congested and the chance of getting a bus ride in the morning when arriving on an intercontinental flight is very big, but FRA is building new gates currently so hopefully it will get better - but when the big A380's of LH gonna start and land in FRA they better have everything ready, I don't look forward to the chaos when they have to bus more than 600 persons.

But still I would still have problems transiting over LHR because there hand luggage rules are even tighter than the ones for the rest of EU and their security lines are so much longer and slower - also LHR is also pretty congested , I am not so sure. And again I still think that it is short thinking of AC since FRA is the better transit hub in particular for Star Alliance flights since LHR is completely dominated one world and BA, so LH is gonna love it - because if AC doesn't have their new product on YYZ - FRA, more people will fly again LH because finally they have their new product guaranteed....

It should probably do well on YYZ-HKG, YYZ-PEK and YVR-SYD. I'm booked on 77L YYZ-HKG in November but for the most part I moved away from AC for YYZ-PEK which I do monthly because of declining and unpredictable service, high cost, and often lack of availability in C and I class. The AC 777 is nicer than UA's 744 in general, but at least UA F and C is reliable. You always get the plane you expect with the seat you expect, the meal service is very predictable, and they are up-front about apologizing and compensation for any problems at all. They even call me day-of if there are any delays and automatically re-route me to make most effective use of my time. At least this has been my experience with UA and AC NA-Asia over the past year. It's going to be tough to fill a 77W if more people become aware of that - and UA is redoing their interiors now too.

And those three routes - YYZ-HKG, YYZ-PEK and YVR-SYD - will pretty much account for six of the eight 777s AC will fly this fall and early winter. The other two will do North Atlantic rotations, to London, Frankfurt and Paris. We shouldn't forget the cargo component here - Cargoagent would insist. All of the routes where 777s are flying have good cargo demand/yields in at least one direction, and YYZ-PEK westbound, normally not a strong cargo route, should do a bit better in the runup to the Olympics. YVR-SYD in particular is a solid two-way cargo route.

Also, the 777 will go back on Tokyo as of February, and will take over YVR-HKG on April 1.

So, as of this fall, all flights to China will be 777s. As of next April, all flights to HKG will be 777s and by next summer all flights to Tokyo will be 777s. So, in other words, all Pacific flights except KIX are destined to be 777s year-round with the possible exception of YVR-SEL.

Starting this fall, as others have noted, the XM's will be dedicated to specific routes, but what I was told today is that they will also be targeted progressively at ALL LHR and FRA routes, so that city-pairs like YUL-LHR, YOW-LHR or YEG-LHR will get an XM'd 763 before a route like YYZ-TLV or the Latin American routes. By next summer, all aircraft in the fleet except the 333s will be XM'd.

Finally, starting this fall, there will be new aircraft designators in the schedule for XM'd aircraft so that travellers can predict the routes they are on, subject, as always to last minute substitutions for mechanical reasons.

Exactly. If I have to chance it, why not get some benefit out of it.

I chance it with UA by doing a connection.
Upside:
1. In case of IROP or weather related issues peace of mind knowing UA will take care of me 100%.
2. Long term gain,quicker to lifetime *A Gold^

I will chance it on SQ by doing a connection .
Upside: Again I can depend on SQ to take care of me 100% in case of IROP or weather related issues.
In fact SQ ensure I am comfortable even without the above issues.
If I have a long layover because of a connection, SQ comp. me a room, meals & transfers.
I have taken AC YVR-NRT-YVR continuing on *A carrier intra asia in paid J. Due to AC's schedule, I have had long layover.
With AC's nickle & dimming:
AC will provide hotel (Cheapest in the area) however no meal voucher or transfers. NRT layover meals can put one back $50+.

On No. 1, it's nice that UA will take care of you, but the best strategy is to avoid the cause of IROPS. I have had some good IROPS experience, mainly related to weather and overbooking, but if I could have gotten home before the storm or avoided the overbooking situation that cost me 24 hours, I would have happily done so, even forgoing the free night's stay in a good hotel.

My thoughts exactly, Sebring. I tell corp TAs regularly "I don't connect through Chicago." I've never had pushback.

And look, if you're smart enough to go on the website and figure out you want the 3:15 flight because it's scheduled to have the plane you prefer, and the corp TA offers you a 2:30 flight on lesser equipment, you just tell the corp TA that you have a meeting or something and the earliest you could get to the airport is 2:00. Presto, you're booked on the 3:15. I also use this approach to be able to fly the airline of my choice to cities that have only a few flights a day.

Me, I would not stay up 3 or 4 hours later, or get up 3 or 4 hours earlier, to get the nicer plane. But I do look and see what planes are scheduled and it does sometimes factor in to my decision.

If one is to apply statistical percentages to the fleet - " there is only a one in three chance of getting an XM 763 or 777 - then one must apply statistics pertaining to delays at US airports. Chicago and Newark are two of the statistically worst airports for delay. Newark is THE worst. Why one would take a dogleg to get to Britain via Chicago or to Asia via EWR is beyond me, unless there was a significant cost difference and the money is coming out of your pocket. In 30 years of travelling as an adult, I try to avoid unnecessary connections and I try to avoid dogleg routings. I try to avoid unnecessary visits to US Customs or additional security charges or airport fees or miserable US government taxes on air travel. I see no need to ADD several hours to my travel routing and expose myself to possible additional delays and baggage misconnects unless money - not service or even points - is paramount. I can understand why some allow status points to get into the equation since it can have benefits that apply wll beyond the trip in question, but from my experience, all international travel has an element of service disappointment risk. I have had less than exemplary experiences on some of those Asian and European carriers which style themselves as exemplary performers and I have had my expectations exceeded on other carriers. There is an element of chance whichever way one goes.

As for NRT, with the yen at current levels vs the C$, Japanese travel to Canada is down. NRT was soft this year which is why there are no 777s serving the two routes this winter. We have become a high cost destination for Asians, but at least with China, there is the intense curiousity factor because so few Chinese have been to Canada, and a lot of Canadians do go to China. AC has a job to do on Japan. It is more affordable than it's been for decades, but ACV does not have a competitively priced package compared to what you can get on UA. I've looked at third party Japan tours, but they tend to be too "guided" and "structured", whereas you can build a two-city or three-city tour on expedia for half the price of ACV's lone package. Canadians tend to have long memories. They remember Norway for the $10 hamburger, but that was a decade ago. Same with Japan. We heard so much for so long about how unaffordable it was to visit, and that all the traffic was inbound. I suppose images of middle class Japanese coming to Banff in huge numbers to buy Gucci and Pucci goodies for a song reinforced that belief, but the pendulum has swung partly back and one can have a nice trip to Japan and stay in good accommodations without breaking the bank.

They were given a warning of this years ago, and Canada and AC do little if any selling/marketing in the Japanese market.........The Japanese have been busy promoting themselves to a strong Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tourism market.
Those tourists are very evident on the streets or the city.....and ask at any of the high end shops who is doing all the buying........it isn't the just the locals!

Mrs. Zorn, who is not only beautiful but also quite brilliant, is not able to tell me (within hours of the flight) whether the plane had TV's for everyone on the backs of the seats.

AF is killing AC on CDG... so the 777 is the least AC can do;) before the 380 wipes them off the map.:D

Also, the 777 will go back on Tokyo as of February, and will take over YVR-HKG on April 1.

So, as of this fall, all flights to China will be 777s. As of next April, all flights to HKG will be 777s and by next summer all flights to Tokyo will be 777s. So, in other words, all Pacific flights except KIX are destined to be 777s year-round with the possible exception of YVR-SEL.

Starting this fall, as others have noted, the XM's will be dedicated to specific routes, but what I was told today is that they will also be targeted progressively at ALL LHR and FRA routes, so that city-pairs like YUL-LHR, YOW-LHR or YEG-LHR will get an XM'd 763 before a route like YYZ-TLV or the Latin American routes. By next summer, all aircraft in the fleet except the 333s will be XM'd.

Yep.........somewhere we have heard this before........I believe it all started in September 2004........a series of hosted gatherings in 2005 and now we here we are 2/3 the way through 2007. Anymore utterances from your crystal ball?;)

Aircraft scheduling and the weather are the same kettle of fish or have you forgotten that with your predictions above!?

When AC updated its timetable several weeks ago changing the equipment type on AC007/008 YVR/HKG to 77W, it would have been based on the delivery schedule of the new 77W. If the A343 sublet deal has fallen through, it should not have affected the change to 77W, particularly on a route with tough competition (O8 and CX). AC could have easily re-deployed the �surplus� A343 to other routes. It�d appear that AC on second thoughts decides to abandon this route to O8, CX and others by keeping one of its oldest and near obsolete equipment for this route. (The A343 may not be obsolete but the interior equipment � no lie-flat seat and AVOD in J, no PTV in Y and no in-seat power anywhere except for 2 in the fleet.)

I may be the 1% minority who care about the equipment type when making travel arrangements.

The significant price difference with O8�s business class is worth considering if one has to fly in AC�s torn and worn A343.

You may be right that AC is treating this route as a throwaway, although my view is that it had to be one of the Vancouver routes because most of the pilots flying the 343 are based there and AC would want to isolate those planes at one city where the backup is primarily large widebody. If it viewed PVG as a better financial bet than HKG, then I suppose it

Is it true that LH and AC share all revenues on the YYZ-FRA route? If so I imagine Lufthansa is very happy with the increase in pax even before picking up the revenue from the connecting flights throughout Europe and beyond. I'm still surprised that LH and AC don't push MUC more aggressively from YYZ. LH certainly push it as a connecting hub from other European cities. Much better airport than FRA to boot.

LH and AC share passenger revenues on all Canada-Germany services. Just as the extra flight will mean code-share revenues for AC as well as Germans on the flight connect across North America.

AF is killing AC on CDG... so the 777 is the least AC can do;) before the 380 wipes them off the map.:D

Hmm... I personally would rather go for a smaller plane. Especially if in Y. In J, it does not really matter, if they handle boarding allright (separate line or something like that.)

I had yyz-nrt-kix-mnl-hkg-yyz planned to try out both 777s on Nov 1 (and a quick stop in tokyo to visit a friend.) Bad timing! I guess I'll move the trip a week ahead...

From what I heard today they are keeping two of the 340's for the YVR-HKG route until November 08!

Just checked a booking I have for 2008 and it has changed to the 343. :(

AF is killing AC on CDG... so the 777 is the least AC can do;) before the 380 wipes them off the map.:D

AC is killing AC on CDG by reducing service quality and increasing prices. I went from 4 YYZ-CDG/year in B/H/M fares to 0 trips/year at $0.

I don't think they could fill the 777 to CDG very often right now. It seemed quite wide open when I took it to FRA even.

The topic of this thread is "The never-ending 777 route shuffling", not "criticize/discuss other members because I don't agree with their opinions."

Please remain on topic.

Thanks,

Simon
Moderator - AC

More 777 route reshuffle this winter (2007/08) it seems:

Sydney
No change to the planned 77W/77L on Toronto - Vancouver - Sydney

They wouldn't want to change that, I have spent too long planning my trip and set aside a nice chunk of money to sit in the front cabin for that trip :D

This is what you said in case you can't remember what you wrote a few posts ago.

. As to why AC keeps shuffling their high capacity 77W, some have said that they are having trouble filling them (with front end paying pax) on many of their routes.

LHR-YYZ the 777 in NOV. keeps going from 777- 343/767. 3 times thus far.

I decide on what carrier to travel by the equipment.

So finally I gave up. Rather than chance it, I booked via ORD, I know it will be 777.
If I am paying premium fare, I do not want to end up on cr**ppy 763.
When I have other options and time.

I do not play aerolotto and will certainly not play equipmentlotto!!!
Are you sure yyzprincess? The 763 old J class is still nicer and more spacious than the current UA C (unless you are on a plane with the new C but I don't think those are rolled out yet?). Also, connecting through ORD is a bit of a hassle as opposed to the straight shot out of YYZ. Just an idea, but if you are worried about the old J on AC, why not just fly BA with their NCCW??

True, but the intra european flights after noon, won't allow you anymore to work - then the whole day is gone right?, that is why the early morning flights are better - at least for me.

Sure, what works for you, except some would say they like a late departure from YYZ because they can put in a full day at the office, go home, eat, and then head to the airport, as opposed to bugging out around 2 pm to initiate the trip to catch a late afternoon or early evening departure. Conversely, on the return, you pick up more time at your European origin point. Instead of gettingh up obscenely early in, say, Prague, to get to the airport to get to FRA by late-morning, you can get up at a civilized hour, have a leisurely breakfast make some calls if you want, and catch the second LH flight to FRA.

In that case, you are an extremely lucky person.

ORD is afflicted by humungous number of weather delays.

Simon

Please go out on Yonge Street this afternoon and ask people what the difference is between an Airbus 319, a Boeing 767-200ER and a Embraer 190.