http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/21/044.html
A scandal is brewing that might thwart Aeroflot flights to North America and has already gotten the attention of President Vladimir Putin.
As of Monday, Canada was planning to deny Aeroflot the right to use its airspace for flights to the United States in a tit-for-tat move after Russia refused to let Air Canada use Russian airspace for flights to India.
This article (http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=fa2dde4d-9952-48dc-8c5b-c1484892649f) was on the front page of the Vancouver Sun today.
Unfortunately, it didn't provide the actual details of the dispute, as explained earlier by B747-437B.
Would you rather it be LHR? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif
It would probably make more sense if it was BRU though...
Absolutely! That would help free up a few A343 that would make YVR/PEK easily with a full load with the current routing. 13-14 hours in that 763 is not fun to fly and work on!! (I think they've been subsituting 30J159Y 763s on that route the last few days instead of 25J187Y. Less seats, more fuel.)
How has this issue been resolved? I would of course prefer the YYZ-DEL flight time to decrease, if at all possible, perhaps by AC's overflight rights over Russia.
Originally posted by tracon:
Communications problems prevented further clarification of the situation until VHF contact at 0230Z when the flight was again advised the NOTAM prohibited his flight from entering Canadian Sovereign Airspace. Pilot then advised having only 1 hour and 50 minutes fuel remaining and intending to land Gander. ESL9431 landed Gander at 0317Z.
What would have happened if Canada did forbid the Russian jet from entering airspace and told him tough luck that he would have to keep on going?
Was this flight done on purpose, perhaps, to test Canada?
Originally posted by tracon:
The impass appears to have ended.
AC63, 7, 29 have all filed over russia to there respective destinations. Today is the first day for this.
Who blinked? Details, details...
AC can always do a tech stop if they have to.
From the AC employee website: (Note the date or Nov. 16)
Any employees wishing to fly standby to Delhi are asked to please delay their travel plans a little longer as we are experiencing extremely heavy flight loads and payload restrictions. As a result, all space available personal travel is embargoed until Nov. 16. Thank you for your understanding.
[This message has been edited by tracon (edited 11-05-2003).]
Originally posted by Empress:
DEL flights can once again fly over Russia on its way to/from YYZ starting on 27NOV. They temporarily released the ban while they negotiate starting in Dec.
although it looks like they can fly the route nonstop after Nov 27, it seems that AC will elect to stop over at ARN on the DEL-YYZ sector... Is this a correct assumption?
the plane hasn't been making a stop but the flight time has been taking an hour longer and it has been weight restricted. Parks Canada - Home::
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Originally posted by why fly:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif OK what airline is it???
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2B451286
Sure hope they sort this out soon. This is a peak season for YYZ-DEL travel. The extra hour is not the problem as much as the reduction in the number of seats (both on AC's new YYZ-DEL and Aeroflot's route via Russia). WHO | Canada::
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Originally posted by speaker:
are they just hoping to steal Air India's traffic on the DEL-KBL
Pakistan doesn't allow overflight by any Indian registered aircraft, so neither Air India nor Indian Airlines are able to operate to Kabul.
The Aeroflot service would allow AI/IC to codeshare on the DEL-KBL sector which has hitherto been Ariana's exclusive preserve.
A twice-weekly 777 from Moscow to Kabul? Geez, aren't they optimistic (or are they just hoping to steal Air India's traffic on the DEL-KBL, I assume it must be very high yield with the UN and NGOs shelling out the big bucks). AC must be mad it didn't think of it first, no need for restricted payload if they fly YYZ-KBL-DEL http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
But I can't imagine the logistics at KBL, ground handling, gate agents, lounge access, runway safety, catering, fuel supply? DEL must be a walk in the park in comparison. Will they contract out to Ariana?
[This message has been edited by speaker (edited Nov 12, 2003).]
No. If everything goes well, that scheduled stop will be taken out and flight will fly nonstop. No point in stopping there if it's not necessary.
Flight will only be stopping if it is necessary. Nothing changes from now.
(Some days before Nov 27 already have the stop scheduled but it wasn't necessary)
For example, some stats from the last 10 days:
06NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:34 06:43[Stop not scheduled, not needed] 07NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:43 06:21[Stop not scheduled, not needed] 08NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:40 06:53 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 09NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:19 06:45 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 10NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:37 06:02 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 11NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:26 06:05 [Stop not scheduled, not needed] 12NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ CANCELLED [Stop scheduled] 13NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:37 05:36 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 14NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:35 05:58 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 15NOV03 AC052 DEL ARN 01:37 05:35 15NOV03 AC052 ARN YYZ 07:21 09:10 [Stop scheduled, needed] 16NOV03 AC2052 DEL ARN 01:01 05:07 16NOV03 AC2052 ARN YYZ 06:42 08:50 [Original AC052 scheduled to stop in CDG. Renumbered as AC2052 and scheduled to stop in ARN, needed] 17NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:14 07:16 [Stop not scheduled, not needed]
The above are actual departure and arrival time. Scheduled departure from DEL is 00:30 and scheduled arrival into YYZ is 05:30.
[This message has been edited by Empress (edited Nov 16, 2003).]
According to the most recent version of the AC downloadable timetable, dated 14 November 2003:
Non-stop AC 52 DEL-YYZ will run Mon Tue Wed Thu and will be discontinued November 26. Fri Sat Sun flights are 1 stop.
Effective Nov 27, the daily flight AC 052 becomes a one-stop flight and arrival time in YYZ has changed to 0755.
AC 51 YYZ-DEL remains as a non-stop.
JS
Originally posted by exAC:
The flight routes have been primarily YYZ to Germany and then a left turn to take it over Poland, Ukraine, Caspian Sea, across a number of ...'stans and then into Delhi.
A little bit longer but it works.
Are we getting extra Q points http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
The latest update is the two sides are now holding talks:
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/031104/b1104102.html
MONTREAL (CP) - Canadian and Russian negotiators held a second day of talks Tuesday over a dispute that has seen each country limit flights from the other into its airspace.
If they have a refuelling stop, does that mean they can carry full passenger and cargo loads?
cheap place for fuel and landing fees? Do they do a crew change??
Would this flight be 16hrs plus with the stop some days?
I should have asked in the last post ...how about the 600.
"Ottawa has forced Russian airline Aeroflot to cancel half its weekly flights to Canada, raising the stakes in a bitter trade war over aviation rights.
Over the weekend, the federal government told Russia that Aeroflot can operate only two of its four weekly scheduled flights to Toronto, retaliation for Russia's refusal to allow Air Canada to fly through Russian air space on its new flights to India.
"We have now reduced flights from Moscow to Toronto from four to two . . .," Jennie Chen, a spokeswoman for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, said yesterday.
"By taking such action, Canada has put economic pressure on Russian air carriers in the hope of bringing about an early resolution." G&M
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U41B52E66
[This message has been edited by airbus320 (edited 11-04-2003).]
Originally posted by FlyerGoldII:
1. I wonder if there are any advantage to expanding the stop to include passengers who want to disembark, or new passengers who want to embark - assuming that the airline agreement between Canada and that country would allow that stop to be considered in that way.Can't do that.
2. For RTW tickets, will this flight still be considered as a trans-Pacific flight, after the implementation of the stop with the return flight to Canada?Yes, it will still be considered as Transpac for fare construction purposes. That is only a tech stop, the flight will become a 'direct' flight (one flight number) so in theory, you're not stopping anywhere!
Originally posted by Empress:
Originally posted by why fly:
OK is this flight making a "tech stop"?? a FA told me hes booked on tomorrows flight and its going to refuel?
Anybody know if some of the flights have had to refuel?AC052 today (08NOV) had to stop in CDG (Paris) for refueling.
OK has the flight plan changed? Will they stop for Fuel every day?
Here are a couple incidents with an East Line Il76:
With reference to Canadian NOTAM A8932/03, ESL9431 flight planned to enter Canadian Airspace and land Gander NL. ESL9431 was operating at FL280 routing 61N30W/2357, 59N40W/0046, 53N50W/0201 CYQX/0305. At 0125Z ATC queried ESL9431 reference NOTAM and asked pilot's intentions. Pilot responded that they thought the NOTAM was for American airspace only and final destination after Gander stopover was Columbia. Communications problems prevented further clarification of the situation until VHF contact at 0230Z when the flight was again advised the NOTAM prohibited his flight from entering Canadian Sovereign Airspace. Pilot then advised having only 1 hour and 50 minutes fuel remaining and intending to land Gander. ESL9431 landed Gander at 0317Z.
ESL9431 an IL76 departed Gander enroute to Rionegro Colombia contravening Canadian Notam #A8932/03. Second infraction filed ref:ESL9431, see CADOR# 2003A0672 for inbound leg of this flight.
Originally posted by YOWkid:
There's no such thing as cheap fuel in Europe (Western, at least...).
Compared to India, jetfuel in Western Europe is extremely cheap.
Originally posted by why fly:
OK is this flight making a "tech stop"?? a FA told me hes booked on tomorrows flight and its going to refuel?
Anybody know if some of the flights have had to refuel?AC052 today (08NOV) had to stop in CDG (Paris) for refueling.
Originally posted by Ace Cdn:
judging from the article it doesn't sound like they are going to let the flight to Delhi go over Russia yet.....so why the sudden lifting of the ban for Aeroflot?
Probably to allow Moscow to save a bit of face given that they had more to lose in the tit for tat
Originally posted by Empress:
Absolutely! That would help free up a few A343 that would make YVR/PEK easily with a full load with the current routing. 13-14 hours in that 763 is not fun to fly and work on!! (I think they've been subsituting 30J159Y 763s on that route the last few days instead of 25J187Y. Less seats, more fuel.)
14 hours with no crew rest area as well as the lack of space for catering....what a noghtmare....any word if the 500 is gonna come through?
Originally posted by YOWkid:
What would have happened if Canada did forbid the Russian jet from entering airspace and told him tough luck that he would have to keep on going?
Probably send out one of our Sea-King Helicopters to intercept it.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif looks like an airline to miss! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
Great it can carry Dangerous Cargo! YIKES!
Originally posted by Expat_Canuck:
According to the most recent version of the AC downloadable timetable, dated 14 November 2003:
Non-stop AC 52 DEL-YYZ will run Mon Tue Wed Thu and will be discontinued November 26. Fri Sat Sun flights are 1 stop.
Effective Nov 27, the daily flight AC 052 becomes a one-stop flight and arrival time in YYZ has changed to 0755.
AC 51 YYZ-DEL remains as a non-stop.
JS
I believe that eff. 27 November, DEL-YYZ will be stopping at ARN.
Why CDG as a technical stop?
[This message has been edited by airbus320 (edited 11-08-2003).]
Todays Aeroflot SVO-SEA flight was operated over the pacific ocean to remain clear of canadian airspace. SEA is 11 time zones from SVO. Total flight time is normally 10.5 hours. Now it's probably closer to 12-13 hours.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/11/19/048.html
Canadian aviation officials on Tuesday lifted restrictions on Aeroflot to use its airspace for transit flights, Interfax said.
Gonna cost a pretty penny eh Empress. Kinda wish we had the 500 now eh.
Canada lifted the ban on Aeroflot flights through our airspace this morning.
I was just watching the BC Global news broadcast.
Their is a story of 80,000+- snow geese, that have travelled from Russia to the Lower Mainland.
I hope they cleared customs, got the appropriate clearances and visas prior to their travels. This incident could spark a serious diplomatic standoff.
Canada and Russia banned each other's commercial aircraft from flying through their sovereign air space yesterday in a simmering trade dispute over aviation rights.
After Russia refused to allow Air Canada flights to New Delhi to fly over Russian air space, Ottawa yanked Russia's overflight rights in Canada. Moscow responded by withdrawing Air Canada's right to fly over Russia on flights to Beijing.
"Russia has denied overflight rights for Air Canada's service to India. As a result, Canada has taken action restricting Russian overflights in Canadian air space," said Jennie Chen, a spokeswoman for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
A spokesman for the Russian embassy in Ottawa said Canada is also reducing the number of Aeroflot flights allowed to land in Toronto. Foreign Affairs said it has not yet put any restrictions on landing rights, a spokesman said.
As a result of Ottawa's actions, Aeroflot aircraft headed to Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle will have to spend several extra hours in the air. And it will take longer for Air Canada flights to get to Beijing." G&M
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X24213866
[This message has been edited by airbus320 (edited 11-01-2003).]
Originally posted by airbus320:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2B451286
In the begging of 2001 East-Line hosted an inspection by the Canadian aviation authorities in Domodedovo, its base airport, and received the Canadian certificate of a foreign aircraft operator providing East-Line the right to fly to Canada.
I can see it now: "Please please please, can we fly to Canada?" http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif
The impass appears to have ended.
AC63, 7, 29 have all filed over russia to there respective destinations. Today is the first day for this.
Originally posted by FlyerGoldII:
How has this issue been resolved? I would of course prefer the YYZ-DEL flight time to decrease, if at all possible, perhaps by AC's overflight rights over Russia.
I assume if we cant overfly Russia this plane will have to make a stop http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Unfortunately, the answer is no at this point. We came close to it, remember AC were going to get it back in May? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif However, with the possibility of AC wanting to expand further into Asia (Victor Li) and wanting to start nonstop flights such as YYZ/HKG, I say the chances of getting it in 2004 is fairly good if the financial position at AC doesn't get any worse.
And DEL-YYZ flights are taking well over the scheduled 15.5 hours these days. Not so bad going Eastbound.
CDG will be a planned tech stop on days when payload is strong enough to require one. As the DEL-YYZ loads start picking up, that will become virtually every day.
Originally posted by MapleLeaf:
Probably send out one of our Sea-King Helicopters to intercept it.[/B]
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
DEL flights can once again fly over Russia on its way to/from YYZ starting on 27NOV. They temporarily released the ban while they negotiate starting in Dec.
well I think this hurts aeroflot more than AC because I'm sure that Aeroflot has more than 2 daily flights from Russia to the USA, so Canada has the upper hand in this battle as far as im concerned
But I can't imagine the logistics at KBL,
Slightly OT...
I wonder about logistics everytime I sit in the BA LHR T4 lounge and watch the departure FIDS monitors. Some of the places they go are amazing, and to see them all going off every few minutes, well, you really feel like you're at the centre of the universe.
Originally posted by why fly:
cheap place for fuel
There's no such thing as cheap fuel in Europe (Western, at least...).
This is what I heard about the two AC flights that are affected, if this is not resolved before the peak travel season -
DEL flights: AC will make CDG/ARN a permanent stop and change crew there.
PEK flights: A stop will also be necessary or the need to upguage. They have been leaving bags behind the last few days just so they could have more fuel. Extremely strong headwinds the last few days. (Even HKG required 15 hours in an A343) These flights are very full over in Dec and they can't leave bags behind everyday.
They are on hold as well. I've heard that AC regreted ordering the 346s because they really can't do much more than the 343s other than bigger capacity. The 345s would be a lot more handy!
Loads is the main deciding factor.
1. I wonder if there are any advantage to expanding the stop to include passengers who want to disembark, or new passengers who want to embark - assuming that the airline agreement between Canada and that country would allow that stop to be considered in that way.
2. For RTW tickets, will this flight still be considered as a trans-Pacific flight, after the implementation of the stop with the return flight to Canada?
[This message has been edited by FlyerGoldII (edited Nov 15, 2003).]
...and this just in from Pravda:
http://newsfromrussia.com/main/2003/11/01/50963.html
'Our planes will be restricted from flying over Canada from November 1. Today's flight from Moscow to Toronto was postponed as a result,' Deputy Director of Aeroflot Lev Koshlyakov told Echo Moskvi radio station today. He said this is linked to the introduction of new flight safety standards.
Originally posted by Empress:
For example, some stats from the last 10 days:
06NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:34 06:43[Stop not scheduled, not needed] 07NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:43 06:21[Stop not scheduled, not needed] 08NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:40 06:53 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 09NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:19 06:45 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 10NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:37 06:02 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 11NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:26 06:05 [Stop not scheduled, not needed] 12NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ CANCELLED [Stop scheduled] 13NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:37 05:36 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 14NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 00:35 05:58 [Stop scheduled, not needed] 15NOV03 AC052 DEL ARN 01:37 05:35 15NOV03 AC052 ARN YYZ 07:21 09:10 [Stop scheduled, needed] 16NOV03 AC2052 DEL ARN 01:01 05:07 16NOV03 AC2052 ARN YYZ 06:42 08:50 [Original AC052 scheduled to stop in CDG. Renumbered as AC2052 and scheduled to stop in ARN, needed] 17NOV03 AC052 DEL YYZ 01:14 07:16 [Stop not scheduled, not needed]
Empress, these stats are fascinating. Is weather ever a factor on scheduling these stops or is payload the sole reason?
Originally posted by MAH4546:
I believe that eff. 27 November, DEL-YYZ will be stopping at ARN.
Is this a case of the *A partners helping each other out? Would SK have offered or AC asked?
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif OK what airline is it???
With Captain Canada being the pilot?
...more likely a pair of F18-Hornets to eyeball the intruder.
we can hold the flight for a long time in Gander and create problems. Like a month http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
Man ...can you spell frustration? Oh well here is looking to the New Year.
Originally posted by Empress:
They are on hold as well. I've heard that AC regreted ordering the 346s because they really can't do much more than the 343s other than bigger capacity. The 345s would be a lot more handy!
Also its a long way back in the 340-600
I would expect a rough ride! Ever notice at the back of the long planes how people sway all over because the back of the plane bounces!
The flight routes have been primarily YYZ to Germany and then a left turn to take it over Poland, Ukraine, Caspian Sea, across a number of ...'stans and then into Delhi.
A little bit longer but it works.
judging from the article it doesn't sound like they are going to let the flight to Delhi go over Russia yet.....so why the sudden lifting of the ban for Aeroflot?
Originally posted by Ken hAAmer:
I, well, you really feel like you're at the centre of the universe.[/B]
No George Bush thinks thats his House! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif:
the planes don't need to refuel on the way home do they?
OK is this flight making a "tech stop"?? a FA told me hes booked on tomorrows flight and its going to refuel?
Anybody know if some of the flights have had to refuel?
FWIW, India and Russia today signed a new bilateral agreement granting Aeroflot additional rights to India, including 5th freedom rights between Kabul and Delhi.
Aeroflot intends to use these new rights to make their SVO-DEL flight a daily 777 (5x nonstop and 2x via KBL) and to add 5x weekly flights to BOM with a 763.
The way I read into it, this might help the Russians see the light at the end of the tunnel and resolve the impasse post-haste.
Here's a NOTAM regarding the airspace restriction:
CYHQ WIE, PURSUANT TO SECTION 601.18 OF THE CANADIAN AVIATION
REGULATIONS, BY MINISTERIAL ORDER, CANADIAN SOVEREIGN AIRSPACE
ABOVE THE LAND AREAS AND THE TERRITORIAL WATERS OF CANADA,
SFC TO FL600 IS RESTRICTED AS FOLLOWS: RUSSIAN AIR CARRIERS,
INCLUDING AEROFLOT, ARE PROHIBITED FROM OVERFLIGHTS OF CANADA
WITHIN THIS AIRSPACE. THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTIONS APPLY:
ONE AEROFLOT FLIGHT OPERATING TO AND FROM TORONTO LESTER B. PEARSON
INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT EVERY MONDAY AND ONE EVERY WEDNESDAY.
TIL 0311302359
 How much does getting a small tattoo on your hip/stomach hurt?
 Do anyone else have an itchy anus? ?
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Canada & Aeroflot fight over airspace